I am wondering how you can be so confident of the effect of something that didn’t happen? C'est un tournant majeur dans l'histoire, car Constantin va mettre à profit son autorité pour fédérer les chrétiens. ... Constantin Trifan Recommended for you. Adam a-t-il réellement existé? The questions whether the guy(s) did a good job and which standard we use seem far more relevant to atheist me. Your reference seems to be to this Council's endorsement of Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter and therefore his endorsement of the twenty-seven book New Testament canon. “This began to be alarming. But it seems that the “heresy” of Marcion was what gave second century Christianity the impetus to begin to define which of these various texts had the status of “Scripture” and which did not. How's the book going? Goodacre (Mark), The New Testament Gateway. Mais corrompus ... comme les Orcs de la Terre du Milieu, Le compte à rebours est lancé – dès l’origine, La voix de l’antique, promesse qui résonne encore autour du monde, La promesse atemporelle à un homme circonspect – discrète, mais éternelle, La foi d'Abraham: Un modèle nous devons suivre, Le signe de la branche: renaissance du tronc mort, Le signe de la Branche : Mentionné des Centaines d’années avant sa Naissance, La branche qui germe au moment précis d’être … ‘coupée, Le 'retranchement' du Christ prédit en détail, La grace et la puissance du jour de Pentecôte. Tertulian’s Trinity doctrine was basically the same as Nicea, he says he was in the minority but that could have been his Western perceptive. Wow, this is one of the dumbest memes I've ever seen. They originally circulated simply as accounts of Jesus’ life and were only given their current attributions later in the second century. Cumpara acum de pe Okazii.ro Probably to signify that they define hopefully core, binding doctrines. Ils ont tué et persécuté de nombreux disciples de l’Évangile. ?est ce que jesus et Dieu est il de même essence??? a long and drawn out process that began centuries before Constantine and did not conclude until long after he was dead.” Pourtant, est-ce que ce sont les “mauvaises” évangiles qui ont été choisis pour être incluse dans la Bible à ce point? We have to remember that the disciples were probably dispersed at a very early time with no fixed formulation on Christian beliefs. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. But this request (and another one made to Athanasius of Alexandria around the same time) simply reflects the fact that such an enterprise was so massively expensive that it took Imperial sponsorship to fund it and it seems to be one of many acts of patronage of Christianity by Constantine, not some attempt at establishing a canon of his own. priests. It also explicitly rejects several books on the grounds that they are recent and written by fringe, “heretical” groups and it specifically singles out works by the Gnostic leader Valentius and by Marcion and his followers. This is the basis of the claim that “Constantine and his bishops voted a bunch of works as the Word of God (325 AD)”. L’empereur Néron a commencé cette tendance en 64 après JC , quand il a pris des disciples de l’Évangile du premier siècle, les a attaché et fait plongé dans de l’huile pour ensuite être brûlés vivant comme des torches humaines pour l’éclairage dans son jardin du palais! Pour l’essentiel, l’établissement du canon du Nouveau Testament a été achevé bien avant Constantin et bien avant que son Église ait accédé au pouvoir. I’m reminded of an old Dutch proverb: fire engine nr. a tinfoil hatter …. This is feeble reasoning. Ensuite, nous pouvons évaluer les diverses interprétations contre la Bible et de les juger. Ça serait une mauvaise excuse, peu importe ce que nous décidons. Mais en grandissant le saint esprit à du refaire mon éducation mais pas dans les écrit car la bible reste original dans son entier et fiable mis à part les coutumes payennes tel que noel et les anniversaires et la prière pour marie et tous les rites inventé dans le culte catolique instauré par constantin qui tiens du paganisme et non du Christianisme car il faut etre catégorique dans cette affaire. Difficile de résumer tout ça en 3 phrases, surtout que j’ai déjà fait de très longs commentaires, notamment sur la théologie du péché. The whole idea of a “canon” of accepted and authoritative works pre-dates Christianity and began with the development of schools of Greek philosophy. The full development of the canon took several centuries, though the basics of which gospels were to be included was settled by 200 AD at least. There he met with far more success, and Marcionite churches sprang up which embraced his idea of two Gods and used his canon of eleven scriptural works. … Dang, an actual atheist website that writes something pertaining to history that isn’t laughable outright. He then imposed much more uniformity, but you are overstating the diversity of forms in the early fourth century. There is also reference to a passage known only from gMark. Most people either try to determine what is true and follow it, or become enamored with an ideology and interpret everything as if it proved the ideology is true. And I take it that since you didn’t respond directly to my theory about Luke being written in the 2nd century that you either agree with it or think it’s too stupid to even address? Ces fragments ne ma… Entrez votre adresse email pour vous abonner à ce blog et recevoir les notifications des nouveaux articles par courriel. Ce graphique simplifié nous donne l’exemple d’un document ancien écrit en 500 av. I personally don’t even think the memoirs were available for him to write about, which is why he used apocryphal texts and the Old Testament when writing about Christ’s divinity. Le Nouveau Testament (en grec ancien : Ἡ Καινὴ Διαθήκη / Hê Kainề Diathếkê) est l'ensemble des écrits relatifs à la vie de Jésus et à l'enseignement de ses premiers disciples qui ont été reconnus comme « canoniques » par les autorités chrétiennes au terme d'un processus de plusieurs siècles. At this stage there was still no central authority which could compel church communities in any way but local councils and synods in Hippo and Carthage in north Africa and later ones in Gaul also settled on the same canon. La polémique du déluge de Noé: Est-ce que l’inondation est vraiment arrivée? It developed from there and, yes, developed into many and various forms. Bon point. The much later idea of Petrine Supremacy was based on that line in gMatt, not the other way around. He gives other books which are probably “spurious” and then lists others which are definitely considered heretical, including the Gospels of Peter, Thomas and Matthias and the Acts of Andrew and John. He lists the works which are generally “acknowledged” (Church History, 3.25.1), including the four canonical gospels, Acts, the Epistles of Paul, 1 John, 1 Peter and the Apocalypse of John/”Revelation” (though he says this is still disputed by some). Far from accepting his teachings, the council excommunicated him and he left Rome in disgust, returning to Asia Minor. Ok, but what about what Christian scholar Dr. Dowdwell says? Marcion was struck by the strong distinction made by Paul between the Law of the Jews and the gospel of Christ. “Combine this with Justin never directly quoting the Gospels and Luke being addressed to Theophilus, Bishop of Antioch, it becomes a little too suspicious to be a coincidence.”. “Getting history right is crucial, and noone – neither the religious nor the irreligious – should get a free ride when it comes to instrumentalising the past. There are about five different hypothesis as to who this person may have been, but given the highly generic nature of the name – θεόφιλος, “friend of God”, “beloved by God” – I’d say it’s most likely the author’s way of addressing a hypothetical ideal reader. All the evidence works against the idea that this or anything like it was his intention and his initial actions strongly indicate that he did not want to alienate his pagan subjects and did not want to make Christianity the sole religion or even the state faith. L’empereur Néron a commencé cette tendance en 64 après JC , quand il a pris des disciples de l’Évangile du premier siècle, les a attaché et fait plongé dans de l’huile pour ensuite être brûlés vivant comme des torches humaines pour l’éclairage dans son jardin du palais! Un peu à propos de moi: La Sagesse que j’ai apprise d’un play-boy trop buveur et bourré de fric. Perhaps whoever is responsible for posting this meme to the “Philosophical Atheism” group was living under a rock at the time, but it was one of the claims peddled by Dan Brown as historical that attracted criticism not just from Christians but also from scholars generally. Eusèbe de Césarée et le canon du Nouveau Testament - Didascale And a quick Google of “Constantine + Bible” turns up a plethora of detailed links debunking the whole idea. This work became available in western Europe in the early seventeenth century and so seems to be where whole story came from. Go look it up.” is particularly amusing. There was no single, central “Church” which dictated these things at this early stage – each community operated in either relative isolation or intermittent communication with other communities and there were no standardised texts or a set list of which texts were authoritative and which were not at this very early stage of the Christian faith. LES MANUSCRITS DU NOUVEAU TESTAMENT 1. Do you know anything about that? Des empereurs successifs, do… Des professionnels, appelés scribes, faisaient la transcription. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Donc il nous faut revenir en arrière pour adopté une foi saine tel que l’à enseigné Jésus, afin d’accéder à la connaissance qui sauve et sa résurection n’est pas une invention des romains car ils ont voulue la camouflé en allant jusqu’a payer les garde qui devait surveillé le tombeau car il craignait que ses disciple enlève sont corp pour faire croire à sa résurection car il ne croyait pas dans la prophéthie mais comme le tombeau était vide sans l’intervention humaine ces dernier était dans la confusion et ne voulait pas que cela s’ébruite car le clerger romain risquait de tomber, donc la réinterprétation de la bible ne se trouve pas que chez constantin mais aussi chez les musulman qui prétende qu’il ne l’ont surement pas tuer donc annule sa victoire sur la mort et c’est ce qui fait la force de l’évangile de Christ car le méssage est que l’homme pécheur doit venir à christ et se dépouillant de sont ancienne vie ce qui veut dire mourrir à soit meme et renaitre de nouveau et s’identifier à la mort de christ et aussi sa résurection car il est écrit heureux sont ceux qui meure en Christ car la seconde mort n’a plus de pouvoir sur eux c’est la première résurection donc nous voyont bien que c’est une étape incontournable pour entré dans le royaume des cieux car Jésus à dit que si nous ne naissons de nouveau nous ne verront pas le royaume des cieux donc cela inclue qu’il faut mourrir pour vivre et sa victoire est bien d’avoir triomphé de la mort pour nous sauver mais Jésus ne parlait npas de la mort phisique mais de notre aptitude à nous détourné de nos faute de notre vivant afin de ne plus craindre la suite car la mort phisique ne peut plus rien contre un vivant en Christ. Possibly this is a source of some confusion. I’ve never believed. Interestingly, the utterances of ecumenical councils like Nicea, are also called "canon's." Christianity’s parent faith, Judaism, had a similar plethora of religious texts from which it chose a few and considered these to be “Scripture” and especially authoritative as the word of God. I still believed Jesus was a historical figure, that the NT was composed by the early Church in the late 1st/early 2nd centuries, and that belief in the Resurrection arose within a few years of the events. At least until around the 4th century it was a mixture of doctrines and beliefs, it wasn’t until the more literal interpreters of Christianity got in bed with the Roman state in 312 A.D that they were able to impose conformity. Le Nouveau Testament (en grec ancien : Ἡ Καινὴ Διαθήκη / Hê Kainề Diathếkê) est l'ensemble des écrits relatifs à la vie de Jésus et à l'enseignement de ses premiers disciples qui ont été reconnus comme « canoniques » par les autorités chrétiennes au terme d'un processus de plusieurs siècles. of recent bishops to the ranks of cardinals in Rome. Et même si ces autres évangiles parlent d’autres choses que du message du Christ (donc de sa vie “quotidienne”), leur message à quand même été écarté volontairement ET DONC la vérité dans sa complétude a été alterée. The memoirs might have been late 2nd century. It isn’t. Tout ce que nous concluons sur les croyances et la théologie nous pouvons alors “posséder “ parce que nous les aurons examinées par nous-mêmes.